Pastor Ernestine Cleveland Reems
is Chosen Bishop
This interview took place in the home
of Dr. Reems only hours before she was consecrated as Bishop-- Sunday,
September 25, 2000. Her home is situated on Malcolm Drive in the Oakland
hills--a beautiful five-bedroom home easily appraised at a half million
dollars or more in today's market. Upon entry, female parishioners worked
busily preparing food and moving in and out with other activities.
Dr. Reems was gracious enough to grant
this interview at a time she needed to be preparing herself for her
consecration. Upon meeting her, she appeared to be a self-effacing woman
who does not appear to have been in the ministry for 50 years--she has
a youthfulness about her.
She sat quietly waiting, as a parishioner
escorted me to the location of our interview. I had seen her many times
in the church, on TV, and we all have heard her on the radio, but as
I was escorted, I spoke to her and walked by not recognizing her, until
she gently said, "I'm here."
Dr. Reems is a person who is easy to
talk with. She interviews well--no assumptions that an interviewer will
try to harm her in an interview, hence, she is relaxed and smiles easily.
In fact, she overcomes you with her gentle quietness. But as the interview
progresses, you feel the fire in her that has brought her to this pinnacle
of her career.
She gave me permission to tape the interview.
___________________
Gibbs:
Dr. Reems, how do you feel about this occasion of your consecration
as Bishop?
Bishop Reems:
I feel that it is a great responsibility and that God has elevated me
to this position for His glory. I think all that we do should be for
the glory and honor of God. I had received word from great ministers
of God that He would take me to another level, but I never anticipated
this; I never even aspired to be a Bishop. One's work, however, speaks
for you. So God has elevated me to this position to, most of all, encourage
women into the ministry.
I find that God will honor and bless you
if you do as he says: "If you humble yourself, I will exalt
you." This position is a great responsibility because it is
a place and position of service. And I know that to him who is given
much, much is required.
Gibbs:
Are you with the Church of God in Christ now, and do you see your
role here as a pioneer?
Bishop Reems:
No, I'm not with the Church of God in Christ. With them I could not
be a preacher, a pastor, and certainly not a bishop, But I was brought
up in the Church of God in Christ; in it a woman can only be an Evangelist
or a Missionary. And they are losing some very good people because of
that restriction. No woman today is going to go through Seminary and
get a Masters degree or a Doctorate degree and just be an Evangelist,
a Missionary, or a Sunday School teacher. I'm not demeaning these positions;
I am just saying that a woman who prepares herself much, as those
degrees indicate, has been given much, so much is expected of her, and
she also expects much more than what they will allow. As a result, the
COGIC is losing some of their best people. As you know, 90% of the church
members are women.
For God to elevate me to bishop, this is
a first for me and also a challenge to me-- am I strong enough
to accept the opposition and rejections that will be thrown up against
me? You know, they said that I couldn't preach, let alone be a pastor,
but I stepped out years ago and said that I am going to be a pastor.
I decided that I was going to pastor in an area of drugs, prostitution
and crime. And I said that I'm going to do a work for the Lord.
I didn't ask for this, but some years ago
Apostle Richard D. Hinton organized a group called MIA-- Monument of
Faith, International Assembly. He said, let's just plant churches and
help young pastors. I have been a part of that movement. We have approximately
50 churches that we have planted.
Gibbs:
Are you the first female bishop in MIA, and do you have
a diocese?
Bishop Reems:
I am the first female, yes. I don't have a diocese as such, but
I have churches under me. I have planted churches in the Bay Area, and
I have about some 15 churches that want to join up with me.
Gibbs:
Will your consecration as Bishop impact your church or
just you?
Bishop Reems:
I think it will impact the church and myself. I think that it is
a challenge to get out and do more for God. I want to say, to all, but
especially to women, keep your self esteem and be faithful to God. One
thing that you can see about me, I have been faithful to God. I have
not been up one year and down the next year. I have been faithful to
God.
For some 50 years, I was leading the ministry
in the Ephesians Church of God In Christ. Dad [Bishop E. E. Cleveland,
noted pastor and community leader, and Bishop Reems' father] was
the pastor, but I was the preacher and the go-getter. I was the one
on the radio and the TV. I was out into the streets pulling people into
the church and off drugs and prostitution. So this elevation did not
come to me suddenly, but this has come as a result of my faithfulness
and consistency to God and his work.
This generation needs consistency. I have
seen that, although I have not been accepted by all--the Boys club still
hasn't received me.
Gibbs:
That is an area I would like to ask about: How do you
think this positions you with the Church of God in Christ and other
churches that say, one, women should not preach, two, they should not
be pastors, and three, they certainly should not be bishops?
Bishop Reems:
I just came back from Los Angeles where I was speaking in a Church
of God in Christ, and they said: "Oh thank the Lord, we are so
happy to have Dr. Reems...oh, no, she is Bishop Reems now. Isn't God
good?" I have the respect of most of their Bishops. They say to
me, "Ernestine, you deserve it. Whatever God wants to give you,
take it."
The younger generation doesn't care. They
think that it is just great. My young people say that our pastor is
a Bishop. I have a church full of young people right now. Young
people are so wonderful; they see it as something in Christ that they
can aspire to. They feel that if God has done it for Pastor Reems, he
can do it for them.
When God made Adam, he made the female
Adam to help the male Adam. We don't have to be the head, but if God
should elevate you there, then you are there. Deborah had no intentions
of going out to lead the children of Israel as a judge. But God determined
that he wanted her to be in that position. Who are we to resist God?
I did not aspire to this position. I had
been asked by other denominations into this work--they said, it's time
for you to be a bishop. But I have always looked at a bishop as masculine.
But God spoke to me and said that I promised to bless you 32 years ago.
You walked in tears, pain, and hurt, and being misunderstood and many
churches and denominations didn't accept you. But I walked with you,
and this is a blessing that you are to receive. That is the only way
I received this.
Gibbs:
This seems to be a time of women--there seems to be a
surge of women in leadership positions both spiritually and naturally.
Would you comment on this?
Bishop Reems:
God moves as He wills. I believe that there are seasons and
times for blessings. I look at Tiger Woods and Venus and Serena Williams,
and I see how God is again coming into Ethiopia [Black people throughout
the world--the Scriptures say that Ethiopia shall stretch forth its
hand to God.] and God is using us and placing us in leadership positions.
I think that God is saying to women that He created them to help men,
but He also wants to bring glory to His name through their ministries.
I believe that this is
the season and time of blessings, and if women are willing to accept
the challenges and suffer the risks that it’s going to take, God will
use their lives.
Gibbs:
Do you think there is coming a season of equality of the
genders?
Bishop Reems:
Yes, I do. Furthermore, I believe that if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed
God, we would never be in this position. There would have been
brother Adam and sister Adam. Her name was not Eve until they fell.
So it was always God's purpose that we be equal and work together. In
the African American community, many of our blessings go out the window;
I have no reason to bash you and you have no reason to bash me. We are
equal in God. He created both of us and gave both wisdom and minds to
work for Him.
We should discontinue the idea that
we are different. I want to go to the Baptist church, the Church
of God in Christ, all the churches and praise God with them. In John
17, Jesus prayed that we be made one. I don't think that I need to box
you into my Pentecostal space.
Gibbs:
Who will perform your Consecration?
Bishop Reems:
Bishop James Everett of New Jersey. He is one of the Bishops
on the Board of MIA.... I will be the only female bishop on the governing
Board of MIA.
Gibbs:
What is your goal, as the only female on that Board? Do
you have a goal for increasing the number of females on the MIA Board?
Bishop Reems:
I think that my role is to share with them, to teach them that the
Board accepts me as equal, and they think nothing about my being a woman.
And, yes, I think that I should help other women become bishops.
Gibbs:
But you have been around a long time; do you think that
it will take that long again to get other female bishops?
Bishop Reems:
No. I think there has to be an Elijah and Elisha mentoring process
that must go on. You have to humble yourself--not be a foot mat, but
humble yourself still. So there is training that needs to occur. There
is work that needs to be done, and I strongly advocate education. I
will propose these types of programs and in three to four years, there
could be a second female bishop.
I will promote the idea in MIA that we
reach out to younger women and push them to go to Seminary and
get the training that is necessary. We can't just get happy and our
Bibles to preach without the training that should go along with it.
Gibbs:
How long do you think it will be before the Church of God in Christ
promotes a female bishop?
Bishop Reems:
I think that it will take 6-8 years because of their long- entrenched beliefs.
Women are not going to go to school and get PhD's to go downstairs and
cook chicken. You can not keep good people that way.
I encouraged a young lady the other day
to go over to the AME. They were going to put her through school. That's
the same denomination that Vashti is in [Bishop Vasthi MacKenzie,
the newly appointed female bishop]. She was a saved young woman
who wanted to perfect her ministry.
I feel bad for the Church of God in Christ,
that they are losing so many people. I knew Bishop Mason [Founder
of that organization] as a girl; he anointed me, and I think that
is why I am being blessed today--from his anointing many years ago.
I have a number of ministries that I have
set up for female leadership. The E. C. Reems Ministry that is
10,000 strong; I have a conference in 2001 where we will address
all the issues of women and men. My ministry addresses both the spiritual
and the natural.
Is there anything I have not covered that you would like
to address?
Bishop Reems:
I
desire the prayers of all people in this new challenge and pray that
God will allow me to remain here a few more years. I don't intend to
leave Oakland because of this new position--I plan to retire from pastorial
work right here in Oakland, but I have further plans after retirement.
I would like to retire and open this large, five-bedroom home into a retreat center for young women of all races and nationalities. []
[This interview is by Frank A. Jones]